Member Removed Posted September 9, 2011 Report Share Posted September 9, 2011 Will you be participating? "Sea Angling 2012 is a new initiative enabling sea anglers in England to contribute to the scientific understanding of fish stocks off our coasts and how they are changing over time, and to ensure that the needs of sea angling can be represented as effectively as possible in future marine policy. It will provide the most comprehensive information yet collected on recreational sea angling activities, its catches, and its social and economic value in England." More info see: http://www.marinemanagement.org.uk/seaangling/questions.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 No I will not! Reason being I do not wish to give the authorities any help in legislating against sea anglers. My view may not be the correct one but when has any participation by sea anglers in anything official had a good outcome for us Our catch rate compared to commercials is minuscule and that is fact so what benefits are there for us in collaborating with officialdom? I would suggest none, they are after gathering ammo to use against us. As I see it this exercise is worse than useless and yet another waste of tax payers money. Why won't they use our money to create wealth instead of wasting it on useless exercises. Surely the only people in favour of these "initiatives" are those that take a wage from them. What will they find to waste our money on next Martin BTW that's after one glass of red just wait until I have finished the bottle, both barrels waiting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 both barrels waiting of wine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) having spent a fair amount of time reviewing the various interested parties, and a quick chat with a well known to the the club charter skipper, I have drawn a different conclusion to Martin (but then again I've only had 2 glasses of red and 5 Stellas) however, my conclusion is that it's an opportunity for the club rather than there being any value in individual contribution. the club represents (or has membership of) a wide range of primarily sport fishermen who spend a lot of money each year on their chosen pastime. we have one of the best communication vehicles, and are passionate about our sport whether we liase direct with one of the stakeholders as a represenative sample or just let it pass by is the choice finally, we do not believe that the perception of our activities matches reality (but I'm not suggesting it would be simple) I didn't originally post because this should be in Club Talk - but the OP is a forum member Edited September 12, 2011 by duncan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirky Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Hey ho.....for the debate .....I have to say I agree with Martin........ Using tax payers money to do a survey of non-commercials so that " based on the information received" they can take measures to tick some boxes to justify their salaries and achieve very little ...... giving them a stick to beat us with IMHO A bit like the other thread about bag limits....... what is the criteria for agreement.... the principal is good but the detail of how it will be applied to commercials and leisure anglers is crucial to the effectiveness .... just saying yes in principle sets the precedence for a possible slap in the face when details get sorted and then .... .... " What will be achieved, how will it be policed and where is the money coming from to sustain the policy"....is the next big debate and salary spinner !! Cynical .... yes !!! Realistic view having been in the "system" for years ..... I think so !! Watch and learn !! Absolutely no wine, beer or stimulant additives required for that !! Dave Edited September 13, 2011 by pirky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Nash Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 debate eh...... These guys are going to get paid irrespective of whether we give them information or not ... our taxes WILL pay for it anyway... why not have some input? (If we don't, we can have no complaints when they make an ill informed decision) Many on here will already know my views on fish health, conservation, catch and keep/release so I personally have no concern about giving information if it will help improve stocks for future generations (even if it means we have to limit our freezers full of dead fish). Many years ago, I was friends with a "doctor", (trust me i'm a doctor ) he was no ordinary doctor but he had a doctorate in FISH!! His job (that we all paid for) was to follow the lifespan and movement of Dace in the river Piddle, and record the expansion or decline of the species and the reasons. He was an immensely interesting chap to share a pint with and I learned masses from him about the life and times of fish. His studies/results did not limit angling activities (in fact it helped the authorities to understand how best to preserve stocks for future angling generations). I point you to the second from last paragraph on the Sea Angling 2012 fact sheet. "Of course, Sea Angling 2012 may demonstrate that recreational activity is having a negligible effect on stocks, and there is no need to seek additional voluntary measures for those stocks. However Defra cannot assume that will be the case, which is why it is important to have data collected as accurately as possible. Well-informed decisions are important for the benefit of all stakeholders". No wine was hurt during the making of this post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Im in both camps on this one Graham makes some excellent points about having our say and not being done to because we cant be bothered to give our input, however: There does seem to be too many surveys which only seem to line the pockets of those you are employed to do the surveys. Perhaps i can get a job doing this too PJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisE Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I go along with Duncan on this one and like him, I'd prefer to have debate at a monthly meeting but working in Wales M-F means I can't attend so here's my tuppenceworth. Whilst I understand Martin's concerns regarding legislating angling I'm not convinced that we as recreational anglers know what impact we are having on fish stocks. Clearly, on the larger scene we take a minuscule amount relative to the commercials but locally I'm not so sure. A couple of examples, there are two bass spots very close to where I live that now no longer produce fish in the numbers or size that was the norm until a couple of years ago. Both have been subjected to charter skippers drifting livebaits repeatedly over the spots and taking mature fish. OK each trip may take no more than half a dozen fish but play this day in and day out with multiple charters and they are impacting the spot more than a local commercial fisher. The second relates to bream fishing on the ledge where it not unusual to find 30 or more boats. If each takes half a dozen, which is not unreasonable you'd say, over the course of the season we're talking about thousands of fish. Now, I don't know whether either of these types of fishing are sustainable and I'd rather that we engaged with this survey to find out than wait until the last bass and bream has been extracted. The last point I'd make is that Florida has some tight, regulated fishing rules on both commercials (net fishing is banned) and recreationals (you have to buy a licence and there are bag limits on some fish) that don't seem to make any impact on the angler but have resulted in a vast increase in fish to catch. Yes, they pay a licence fee but I for one would haply shell out if it meant that we had more, quality fish to target. We have all witnessed the degradation of fishing over the years and we can either wait until the last fish has gone or do something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Nash Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Excellent post Chris .... similar sentiment to me but rather more eloquently put Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I am also hesitant - especially having seen what happened recently with the Eel debate! All rod and line angling subsequently banned - commercial exploitation continues unabated - mostly to be shipped abroad as we only have a very small home market for the end product. This was not how it was originally explained at the "consultation" and not what AT signed up for - and have now objected to. Unless they seek out to restrict all activity including licensed / unlicensed inshore netting, inshore trawling, and RSA in an equal and proportionate manner then I do not approve in providing further ammunition. We are targeted as we are percieved as having money to pursue a "leisure" activity and therefore extracting a bit of extra money should not cause too much hardship. Neal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 to me our choices are simple - either we as a club undertake to provide statistically valid data relating to small boat anglers or we will be lumped together with the rest of the RSA sector and the existing pre-conceptions will remain unchallenged. the key part of this is that as a group we make a larger overall contribution to GB plc per fish taken than any other - by a scary factor (my one problem with the survey would be SWMBO seeing the actual costs associated with running a small boat for angling!) I have taken, and eaten, 1 mackerel and 1 plaice in the last 2 years, against estimated costs of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirky Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) And so it goes on........ I want conservation and I want sustainability in the fishing industry ..... and I agree with a lot of the "YES for supplying info" that have been put in this thread....... BUT it goes back to HOW the information is collated and what is the MAIN agenda and how many underlying agendas are there........WHAT will be done with the info. Will the commercial fishermen submit their info with the same gusto .....what will be the "balance" of where the info comes from ?? At the end of the day .....Authorities need to be seen to be doing something about this issue .... as with the "eel debate " mentioned by Neal...... POLICING any policy will be very expensive and the easiest way to ensure some success is to BAN it all...... I personally love to eat some fish I catch ..... but the cost per fish I catch is way above what I will pay for them at Greenslades ... so I have no probs with catch and release........but what if they BAN all recreational fishing in large areas and continue to allow commercial skippers bag limits that are un-enforceable !!! If they want to impose a bag limit licence ...... what will be the criteria.....a daily bag... a yearly bag....how will it be policed and what will the penalties be ?? What if you deep hook a fish after you have taken your bag limit ???... Do you return it dead or dying.... could this lead to a discard policy being adopted to stay below you bag limit ...... what will be the criteria for the bag....all fish ... or just big name fish such as Bass or Bream, Cod or Pollock Penalties are the next big issue ... what form will they take and how will they be implemented ....... Oh my word.....!! Interesting thread this one .....Should the fishing industry be "SELF POLICING" or will this lead to "mafia" type tactics prevailing.... SO many issues are shrouded in this one simple request ...... Dave Edited September 13, 2011 by pirky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fox Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 On the River Fal, in Cornwall, they limit oyster fishing impacts by only allowing licensed boats under sail to collect oysters. I'm poised.... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Only cause the oyster can just out run the sail boat, giving them a fighting chance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hi all I have just received this link from Wessex Angling Trust http://www.anglingtrust.net/news.asp?itemi...ctionTitle=News This is on AT's web site in which Cefas have issued a new Question and Answer document addressing anglers' concerns raised over the Sea Angling 2012 data collection project. The Q&As are intended to help anglers make an informed decision about contributing to the project, based on a clear and balanced understanding of the project and its intended outcomes. I have to admit I have not read it yet and reserve judgement until I do so. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think it looks like it has potential, better to be represented than not. If stocks are declining we need to act now and maybe this is the time \ option to do so. Better that decisions are made with all the information (though unlikely!). I guess the authorities are damned if they do and damned if they don't!! With MCZ's on the horizon and protected areas (Lyme bay), the new IFCA's, I feel more positive about the future of our sport than have for the previous 5 years +. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveBaiter Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I hope we are all agreed on here that we want more fish in the sea. As I see it, the best way to achieve this is for less fish to be landed. In order to achieve this, further restrictions on what is landed need to be imposed upon all fishermen. I say this because although I understand and agree with the argument that when compared to the thousands of tons of fish landed by the commercials, us leisure anglers don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I hope we are all agreed on here that we want more fish in the sea. As I see it, the best way to achieve this is for less fish to be landed. In order to achieve this, further restrictions on what is landed need to be imposed upon all fishermen. I say this because although I understand and agree with the argument that when compared to the thousands of tons of fish landed by the commercials, us leisure anglers don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisE Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I'd like to add a bit to my earlier posting, more food for thought than proposals. Viewed from a commercial's perpsective we are doing this for fun and they are doing it for a living and can fully understand why if someone's livelihood is threatened they are going to fight hard. We need to understand their concerns as well as our own if we are to engage successfully here otherwise this exercise will end up as us v them contest with the fish being the loser. As others have said we need to get the message across that whilst fishing is a reacreational activity it is also a large business that keeps people in work. I'd guess that recreational anglers are a larger part of the economy than the commercials, when you take into account boat sales, marina and boatyard costs let alone tackle, etc. Does anybody know of any figures on this? Yotties have very successfully organised themselves via the RYA and other bodies to make their views known in the right places. Traditionally, as anglers have rightfully been proud to be independant however the issues of fish stocks, MCZs and conservation are bigger issues that have the general public engaged and our voice has to be heard and I'd suggest that joining up with and supporting ATs activities is our best and probably only bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petesnr Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 the argument that 'They are doing it for a living' is irrelevant. The whole crisis in fisheries is due to the influence of big business behind commercial fishing exerting pressure on governments to allow them to continue their unsustainable activities purely for profit in the short term. I am not in favour of bag limits until commercial activity is brought under proper control because as has been mentioned elsewhere it is laughable for a recreational angler to be fishing near a commercial and putting back the few fish he catches as he watches boxes being filled on the commercial boat. Our catches are a drop in the ocean compared to the miles of tangle nets inshore and the factory fishing offshore. I would be happy to accept a bag limit at the same time as restrictions to conserve and RESTORE fish stocks are implemented both inshore and offshore. Petesnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 QUOTE (ChrisE @ September 14, 2011 10:00 am) As others have said we need to get the message across that whilst fishing is a reacreational activity it is also a large business that keeps people in work. I'd guess that recreational anglers are a larger part of the economy than the commercials, when you take into account boat sales, marina and boatyard costs let alone tackle, etc. Does anybody know of any figures on this? Ask Defra I believe they undertook a survey almost the same as the one proposed here 4/5 years ago so where is that information. Also where is the information more recently collected by finding sanctuary to help them identify where mcz''s were to be located. I am not against conservation in fact far from it. I am respectful of the fish I catch and only take fish for my own needs. I am though very cynical of those on the gravy train. So far I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that this survey would not be used to the detriment of anglers. I believe it is the EU that have told HM guv & co to provide this info to help formulate policy or they will be heavily fined so read into that what you will. Everything written may not be as it at first seems, they need us to fill in the gaps or they (read as us) get another EU slap. Also agree with Peter 100% Martin PS glad I'm going on me hols soon as I can't stand politics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisE Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Thanks for the link to Defra which relates, I believe, to a study that was carried out by the previous government with a plan to promote angling, beleive it or not. This has probably fallen by the wayside with change of government. Appreciate that politics is not your cup of tea, nor many others, wouldn't it be nice just to go fishing? ho-hum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 the argument that 'They are doing it for a living' is irrelevant. The whole crisis in fisheries is due to the influence of big business behind commercial fishing exerting pressure on governments to allow them to continue their unsustainable activities purely for profit in the short term. I am not in favour of bag limits until commercial activity is brought under proper control because as has been mentioned elsewhere it is laughable for a recreational angler to be fishing near a commercial and putting back the few fish he catches as he watches boxes being filled on the commercial boat. Our catches are a drop in the ocean compared to the miles of tangle nets inshore and the factory fishing offshore. I would be happy to accept a bag limit at the same time as restrictions to conserve and RESTORE fish stocks are implemented both inshore and offshore. Petesnr in a nutshell......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codpiece Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) The point Chris makes on Bream and particularly the Ledge so so stands out!!! it is noticable that when the hen fish arrive the ledge gets ''bashed'' for about 4-5 weeks, this year was spectacular in that when nesting had finished so did the bream fishing to all intents and purposes, I was out this year with Trevor W we caught to 3lb plus, all but a few keeper cock fish went back, on this one trip I counted 48 boats in the area, a charter boat from Lymington not 100yds from us kept everything!! he was not alone, I agree the ''comercials'' should be better policed but we should better police ourselvs, PBSBAC is a great club but we only have influence with our members which is a shame, So how do we expand that influence and i must wonder how many other clubs would follow suit let alone fishermen with no alegiance to anyone!! On one Whiskey and Coke, Derek,V. Edited September 14, 2011 by codpiece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisE Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I'm going to add one last point then bow out as I can see that we don't all agree on this and I don't want to start a fight especially with our goodselves. It is too easy to blame the commercials for the overall decline and expect them to give up their livelihoods so that we can benefit from their actions. This is an issue that affects both them and us and I'd expect that any solution is forged to benefit both sides. I'm off fishing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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