Guest Bob Shotter Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Many thanks Little Sal I would like to think RSA-UK can give sea angling and anglers a voice. Getting it all together and having anglers gel on important issues would be a start. We have already upset the apple cart with some but have a very long way to go yet. None the less we are recognised as a player, or to give it the official term we are a stakeholder and can talk to DEFRA and there closely aligned CEFAS outfit. How much impact we can have has yet to be tested, but the ideas are there and questions are being asked. Back in March I attended the annual fishing summit which hither to I had no idea had even existed, this was a part of my MMO IFCA duties and it was clear that many of the delegates from the marine side of angling wanted a summit of their own. That idea I ran by DEFRA and the result is they would welcome one that would provide some substance on which they could base the advice they are duty bound to provide the government. It has to be more than a talking shop they said and that is just one idea on which we now working on. Sal so many like you have joined the org but as you say the post are few and I can only assume that it is a result of politics being an uninteresting subject for most. Frankly we need input from anglers and I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisE Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Bob, Welcome to the forum and thanks for your forthright views. I understand and recognise the no regulation, government will inevitably screw us point of view because I have heard it before from both the sailing and salmon fishing communities. As it happens, I don't agree with the 'it has been unregulated forever so why bring in regulation argument' for two reasons: Firstly, the world moves on, initially there was no regulation in air traffic because there were few enough planes for it not to be needed, now it is accepted that it is needed for the safe execution of air travel. Secondly, and perhaps more pertinently to this forum, lack of regulation succeeded in wiping out the cod in off the Grand Banks, the herring in the North Sea and nearly the salmon around the Uk. We are now in the happy position of salmon stocks slowly returning thanks to salmon anglers putting back most of what they catch, the herring are slowly returning to the North Sea and even the odd cod is being caught off the Grand Banks. I'm not saying that any of the measures were or are perfect but the regulations seem to be having the right effect. Taking your point regarding charter skippers, in the US the Florida rsa Market almost collapsed 15 years ago because of high take of fish by both commercial and rsa. Now both are regulated, netting is no longer allowed around parts of the coast and anglers are limited to a certain number of fish they can take a day. Result? Last time I looked there are more rsa skippers and anglers. I understand your concerns re rsa skippers and their ongoing livelihoods and would ask whether you want a short term gain for a long term pain ie reduced or no stocks for rsa to fish for? As others have said we, around here, have specific problems with rsa overfishing of bass and bream and fear for our long term sport. We used to have a fantastic shark fishery off the IoW until the majority were killed by rsas in the 70s. I can't support your version of an rsa vision until you start to talk about evidence not rights. Apologies if I have misread your message but I just didn't see any talk of how we know if rsas are having an impact or not. I don't know and am not prepared to just hope that you are right. You may be but if you are wrong, I don't want to have to explain to my two grandsons that the fishing used to be great but now it has all gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 (snip) In your area of Poole you have an IFCA that seems from what I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Shotter Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hi ya Chris again thanks for the welcome, talking about fishing is next best to getting out and catching a few in my book. You know I thought just like you only what, just four years ago, after seeing the film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I see you have a Quota vote. Yes I'm in favour of restrictions. BUT as anyone will confirm, I don't get out very often. If someone want's to limit any fish that I may catch, ( I very rarely catch anything ) then I will oppose it. I do not pose any threat to fish stocks ( I just feed them ) Somehow the rules need to be worked out to allow for people like Me. ? ? ? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I understand where you are coming from Bob, but I it is a fact that the Grand Banks Cod stocks collapsed due to over fishing ( commercial ) and it has to be said, from British trawlers ! In 1968 the cod catch from the Grand Banks was 810,000 tons In 1974 it was 34,000 tons .... Did you know you used to be able to catch cod from the Grand Banks by lowering a basket, they were that thick on the ground. re: Cod fishing, how many fish would RSA's need to take from the BrittleStars in a day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisE Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Bob, Thanks for taking the time to answer my query in a courteous fashion. I think that I can see where we are either talking at cross purposes or just simply have a difference of views. Yes, you are right that compared to the majority of commercials we rsa don't scratch the surface but in a few specific areas the impact of a fleet of rsas in a small area can have more impact than our commercial cousins. I'm thinking here about bass and bream marks where the terrain doesn't generally support trawling. We have a fleet of over 50, maybe a 100 boats that fish for bream here and if each boat takes say a dozen fish (we have had days of 50+ fish, all returned btw) then you can see that the take on one day is significant. Ditto bass marks. I know that bass are on the up at present but talking to commercials and observing rsas a bass shoal can soon be wiped out until the next shoal comes along. Again, I don't know what the impact is of this but I'd prefer to base any views on independent evidence rather than local heresay. I don't agree that we should not engage with government or believe that we are above any regulations that we would have imposed on others. Still it would be a sad old day if we all agreed about everything and at the end of the day I believe that the best arguments win and the best way of getting to the heart of an issue is via robust debate. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Shotter Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Re the Grand Banks Paul we were not alone there; The Canadians, Americans, Icelandic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Re: Grand Banks - agreed, we were not alone, but we did actually invent the factory trawler - "The Fairtry" Interestingly, it was the Canadians themselves that finished off the fishery. A run on the banks In 1951, a strange ship flying the British flag arrived on the Grand Banks. It was enormous: 280 feet long and 2,600 gross tons, four times the size of a large side trawler The ships grew bigger. They eventually reached 8,000 tons, towing nets with openings 3,500-feet in circumference. In an hour they can haul up as much as 200 tons of fish, twice as much as a typical 16th century ship would have caught in an entire season. By the 1970s the Soviet Union had 400 factory trawlers on the high seas. Japan had 125, Spain, 75, West Germany, 50, France and Britain, 40, and dozens more were operated by East Bloc nations. In 1968, the cod catch peaked at 810,000 tons, almost three times more than had been caught in any year prior to the Fairtry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Interesting debates guys My ten penneth My boat fishes as much as we can, for sport first but we are also willing to take a few for the table. In our case the fish that survive best get returned most and we keep others like pollack for the table. I have fished in New Zealand and discussed their fishery with RSA's over there. These guys live with bag restrictions for both commercial and RSA sectors and admit that because of stringent enforcement of the rules [Paid for in part by fines imposed] the system has rescued a dying snapper fishery. I for one could live with restrictions such as bag limits, even quite stringent ones allowing say just 2 fish per species, per angler, per day. But i would be 100% OPPOSED TO ANY LIMITS if they were not also imposed on the commercial sector and charter boats. Why should we impose any limits on ourselves if the Commercial lads can just come along the next day and take what they want to sell and discard dead the rest. I know by operating catch and release we are already limiting ourselves to what we take home, but that is by choice in an effort to make a tint differance. Not because we have to in fear of being caught by Fisheries officers that should have much bigger offenders and issues to chase. [illegal Netting, sale of Black Fish and Discards to name three] Are you really saying that you believe RSA's have no affect on fish stocks, yet you quote the fishing on the Brittle Star grounds? Many people were guilty of "making hay while the sun shines" with trip after trip in the very hot period, some were even daft enough to get articles into the press about it, with photo's of stuffed fish boxes. The commercial boys were on a cod ban, reading of boats catching 100 cod a day each. Before anyone asks ,yes we were there a few times, like we had been many years before when most had not heard of the brittle stars. But we did not fill boxes with more cod than we could eat fresh, and often spent more than half the trip at anchor congering. There were days when we could count over 40 boats out there, They must have been denting the stocks somewhat. Try going out there this year, so few fish its not worth the trip. Should that be the lesson to be learnt? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codpiece Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Charlie has said it all, There cant be a club member that does not agree 100% with his post, I dont think there is any more to say, Derek, V, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Shotter Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Hi Charlie Good post and quite informative however you neglect to point out what caused the near demise of the Snapper fishery and it was not Recreational Sea Angling was it? You then go on to base your argument on the relatively small 'Brittle Star ground' and suggest RSA had a significant impact, with all due respect I would suggest the Cod numbers there at the time devoured the food that they went there for, as in the Brittle Star and have now moved on. The sheer number of Cod at the height of the season to which we refer would suggest RSA could never fish them out where they to have remained. While neither argument can in all honesty be proven and a commercial impact has also to be considered, the idea of supporting bag limits that would have serious consequences on anglers in other areas on unproven data is a short sighted one, impo that is. SoI'm sorry Codpiece but I think there might be a little more mileage in this yet. Tight lines Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codpiece Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 No more mileage for me I dont like blind corners!! Derek,V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Bob I am afraid I was just visiting NZ for a month so did not really know what caused the problem, however I was staying with a very good angling friend a year after he emigrated. It was Steve that told me of all the reports, he had read about and received by word of mouth from Kiwi Fisherman relating to huge improvements since the bag limits were enforced on RSA and Commercials. Ref the BSG: 2008 was a special year, numbers of cod were 10 times What they had been previously [and I had fished it many times before that year]. Do you not think, that the Cod ban on Commercial fishing the previous season had in some way helped the stock?? Previous to that year we only saw 5 or six other boats and only on the very best tides/weather. In 2008 there were fleets out there, even on the big tides, nearly all taking boxes of cod home. By my thinking; more boats = more anglers + fishing more days = a considerable impact 40 boats taking say 40 fish is 1600 fish per day Sure that is not the amounts a big trawler fleet could take, but I bet there are plenty of commercial fisherman that would be more than happy to take 1600 cod a day, or even a week. I agree that RSA alone could not fish that stock of fish out, but it must have had some impact. Perhaps we should have closed the area to nets and only allowed fishing by rod and line in an attempt at sustainable fishing. As I said earlier I would only ever support bag limits if they were enforcable on RSA and Commercials. In NZ the bag limits cover all the islands and I believe in some areas there is little more than snapper to catch. RSA have accepted this and go for shorter trips catch their limit, catch and release the small good condition ones, then go home. Living in areas that hold just cod, does not surely give genuine RSA's a need to bag up at every oportunity. I have seen this before, some charter skippers after finding a new hot spot, fish it out before others find it, rather than share it and fish it in a sustainable way in an attempt to maintain it. just my thoughts on this Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Heres an example of RSA impact- i used to fish in this area in the 80's myself and i cant believe my beloved Calico ( kelp) Bass are almost gone http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/...ced-study-says/ PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Shotter Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yes I saw this article a few days ago posted by good old Leon and in the article that states the problem is caused during a short spawning season by novice anglers and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Bob If you can think of a way to get Maria Damanki and her colleagues to ban trawling and other commercial methods that are putting fish stocks at dangerously low levels. I am 100% sure that you will have made 200 new friends at PBSBAC. Some of us are just saying that providing bag limits were across the board, we would accept and live with them. We would live with restrictions if the commercisl fleet were restricted. I am not saying we should accept it on our own . Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Come on guys I thought you might have a tad more sense. Still patronising as ever Bob PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 i, European Commissioner for Maritime Affairs and Fisheries and her committee need to get their act together and set some sustainable regulations that are adhered to and then this debate would be totally unnecessary, but that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman1055 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Dear Bob I have been watching this thread develop for a few days now I have been impressed by your passion and the length of your posts I would be grateful if you could just update me, and let me know what your organisation has achieved in the way of promoting conservation, protecting recreational sea angling, and preserving fish stocks.. I , like many others have signed up to support the ANGLING TRUST and accept that it will take some time to establish credibility and gain influence, especially with european fisheries policy. If you are able to demonstrate to me that you have had some influence and made a difference to policy, I will consider coming to join you. Tony Club Chairman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 length of your posts A long drawn out post doesn't make it a good worthwhile post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman1055 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 BOB ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts