Robo Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Hi chaps Had a bit of a problem Sunday, I was looking forward to a cod trip on my boat after a long and difficult period of illness, I thought to get out would do me good and after only been out twice this year and worse case scenario engine wouldnt start, gutted! It's been sitting too long with little use I believe, game over for the day and it was nice weather too! So really i'm trying to find a good outboard repairer, mobile prefered or I will have to tow the boat to them Historically I have used BHG at Bucklers hard which is a bit of a trail , especially on my own, it's not easy to get the boat out from where it's stored or back in again That said I have always had great service from BHG so it's kind of worth the hasle If I can find a local guy that is into the older two stroke Yammys then it's all good, no need to haul the boat up to Bucklers The engine is in very good condition with low hours, looks almost new so I hope this is not the end I have a fully charged battery, fuel in the tank and the plugs were wet and smelled of fuel, so I guess it's getting through, also I checked the top plug for a spark and sparks away very well, havent checked the others though I pulled the air box off the carbs and I noticed a little fuel in the bottom two venturies but not in the top carb, not sure if that is significant?? There are three carbs in total on this motor so I would have thought it would at least fire but nothing? not even a maybe ill start, completely dead Before you ask lol it's in neutral and the lanyard is connected Also I checked the inline fuse on the engine as this did go once before but all good, I looked at the fuse very carefully I'm happy it's good, only thing left for me to do is a compression test as soon as I get chance, oh' the plugs are mint aswell I have run out of ideas so if anyone knows of a good engineer I would appreciate having the contact details Cheers Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 She started in the end though didn't it? I thought 'kill cord' on Sunday when you were cranking!! (Assuming you are Otter's neighbour). How old is the fuel? Water in the filter? Water in fuel (sinks to bottom of tank and picked up first!). There is a guy mark who is mentioned here: http://www.pbsbac.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=10592 Worth a try. I think Alun J had his ob services by someone in x-church. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alun j. Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Elfords Marine PLD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Warrior Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Mark Towersey serviced my engines at the start of the season. Very nice chap and very professional he will sort you out. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 She started in the end though didn't it? I thought 'kill cord' on Sunday when you were cranking!! (Assuming you are Otter's neighbour). How old is the fuel? Water in the filter? Water in fuel (sinks to bottom of tank and picked up first!). There is a guy mark who is mentioned here: http://www.pbsbac.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=10592 Worth a try. I think Alun J had his ob services by someone in x-church. Rob Hi, no it didnt start, nothing like it, not sure who otter is either lol The fuel is about three months old, been left on the boat in a plastic yamaha tank not covered up but the boat is at home and fairly sheltered in the back garden I looked into the tank because I had the same thought, water in the petrol, I couldnt see anything i dont suppose I would What gets me is not a single fire, nothing, you would have thought it would show some sign of life even if just to spit at me and tell me to get stuffed, well it did the last part Seriously I'm scratching my head, I think I wil dump all the fuel, empty the fuel line, strip the carbs fill it all up again and see what happens, the fuel filter was spotless cheers for the contact info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman1055 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Try cranking the engine with the throttle fully open and out of gear This should work if the engine is flooded, get ready to throttle down if it fires Did you check for a spark at the plugs, use a rag as you can get a nasty shock off modern engines Are the carburettors free of oil deposits that could block jets Worth a try Good luck Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman1055 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just a thought Check the quality of the connection on the earth strap It may be worth undoing and cleaning with a wire brush Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just to clarify, A discussion I had with my fishing buddy, can you keep fuel in these plastic tanks? I imagine there is a safety consideration but apart from that is it ok to keep fuel in them for a few weeks? or do I dump it every time I think the boat will be stood up for a few weeks I used to transfer any left over fuel into a jerry can but stopped doing it because I thought there is no difference apart from safety, I cant imagine it will maintain the quality of the fuel any different to a plastic tank My concern was condensation inside the plastic tank, but I expect you get that on all boats especialy with built in tanks, how do you overcome this condensation problem or is it even a problem? it must be the same sittuation with vehicles too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just a thought Check the quality of the connection on the earth strap It may be worth undoing and cleaning with a wire brush Tony Thanks for the Tips, I havent checked the earth strap but under the hood it looks brand new, nice and oily with that engine spray thingy stuff all over the place, I think BHG marine like it greasey Not tried full open throttle, the carbs looked spotless inside, I cracked open the drain plugs on each carb just enough to see if there was any fuel present and there was, so just nipped em back up I only checked the top plug for a spark with some thick leather working gloves You will be pleased to know what remains of my hair is still in place lol not sticking up I guess there are a few things I can try before I go down the expensive route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Try cranking the engine with the throttle fully open and out of gear Modern engines do bugger all if in gear and you turn the key!! Re. the Otter thing, there was a boat next to us on the mooring on Sunday, I thought it had a similar name! It had a yam 70 2 stroke that wouldn't start and he had the plugs out etc etc!!! Think my brain was frozen!!! Have you tried some easy start in to the air intake?? If the wiring for the kill cord thinks it is missing due to a wiring fault it won't start. I leave my fuel for months without use in plastic yam tanks. With breather closed, never had an issue, use a double dose of Redex once a year. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 It's a good point about the lanyard switch, I wonderd if it might be faulty I will add that to my check list, it does go in and out when removing/replacing the lanyard but might be faulty though It's frustrating looking at a mint engine that for no obvious reason won't start Historically it goes on the button and runs really well, I was going to leave it until next year but if there is a serious problem I would rather get it sorted and at least know i'm going into next season with a tip top motor I guess I have some home work, watch this space to reveal the Gremlin! Eel go one way or tuther At least ive looked at most of the obvious things now it's time to get my hands greasey and I'm thinking about a crimbo cod trip! Time to get out catchin! Re: otter thing, the desease is spreading! Yamahanostartupus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman1055 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Ok check the spark at the plugs If not there it is probably kill cord Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 As been suggested I think you will need to strip the carbs as 2-stroke can leave oil in the carb after the petrol has evaporated and block the jets. This is a common problem. Also worth checking to see if the choke works, most older Yamaha's have an electric choke via a solinoid so you should see that working. If you had a spark on one of the plugs I suspect the cut-out cord switch is ok. If you need any more info let me know as I have an electroniic manual on most Yamaha's. Is you engine pre-mix fuel or do you have oil injection system? I store 2-stroke in plastic tanks without a problem (so far) just need to watch out for the increase in pressure in the tank during sunny ( ) weather. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 As been suggested I think you will need to strip the carbs as 2-stroke can leave oil in the carb after the petrol has evaporated and block the jets. This is a common problem. Also worth checking to see if the choke works, most older Yamaha's have an electric choke via a solenoid so you should see that working. If you had a spark on one of the plugs I suspect the cut-out cord switch is ok. If you need any more info let me know as I have an electronic manual on most Yamaha's. Is your engine pre-mix fuel or do you have oil injection system? I store 2-stroke in plastic tanks without a problem (so far) just need to watch out for the increase in pressure in the tank during sunny ( ) weather. Dave Hi Coddy, Thanks for staying up so late just for me Seriously I thought about the lanyard last night and felt it must kill the ignition somehow but I have a spark on the top cylinder at least When I had the air box off the front of the engine I turned the ignition on and saw a little flick of the throttle butterflies, not much movement but definitely some movement, I assume that means chokes on? The interesting thing is if you turn ignition off and on again no movement, leave ignition off for a few minutes then turn ignition on and the butterflies flick again it's clever in it, like it knows it's cold but almost like the longer the ignition is on the choke gradually goes back to normal idle position, so turning the ignition off then back on resets the choke to on, I suppose it's better than steaming three miles without realizing you have left your manual choke on! I spoke to a chap on a car forum last night he said this BETOL model of yamaha outboard rarely develops any serious faults, going on to say they were better than the new four strokes in terms of reliability, sounds like there have been issues! This guy has worked on yamaha outboards for thirty years and he bet me I have water problems, not me personally:D but my fuel, his advice was also to drain everything spray some carb cleaner through the jets, his words were cleanliness is only next to godliness when it comes to your fuel system, prompting me to do the best job I can So I'm going to start with the fuel system and be ridiculously thorough with it, put some new fuel in and see what happens, it's funny most people advise me I have water in the fuel but if these plastic tanks are ok where's the dam water coming from??? The only way I can see water getting in is 1. Condensation inside the tank 2. Water in the fuel in the first place 3. Due to the vacuum inside the fuel line it sucks in rain water/dampness over a period of time left on the boat??? beats me where I could be getting water in my fuel but I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I was reading an article in a Land Rover mag last night- your issue could be ethanol? The article was saying that Petrol can now have up to 5% ethanol in it, and if left undisturbed for long periods of time it can seperate from/react with the petrol leaving fuel contaminated with water and acid. Water causing starting/running problems and the acid eating fuel lines and gaskets. Apparently 'cheap' petrol stations (there's no such thing!) such as supermarkets, are worse for high %'s of ethanol. More doom and gloom, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I was reading an article in a Land Rover mag last night- your issue could be ethanol? The article was saying that Petrol can now have up to 5% ethanol in it, and if left undisturbed for long periods of time it can seperate from/react with the petrol leaving fuel contaminated with water and acid. Water causing starting/running problems and the acid eating fuel lines and gaskets. Apparently 'cheap' petrol stations (there's no such thing!) such as supermarkets, are worse for high %'s of ethanol. More doom and gloom, sorry. I always use Esso in the boat, after all the bad reports about cheap petrol ruining car engins Interesting point though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Calling all outboard owners with a filler cap on the hood for your oil, you might find this little discovery very interesting! After tearing down my fuel system from fuel tank to reed valves! I found nothing of concern, no reason for any faults to occur at all, in spite of this I have overhauled the whole lot, everything is spotless and checked for correct operation So bit more head scratching and I thought to myself lets break this down, how can any contaminant of any kind get into my engine? Fuel, air, oil, Still going with this water contamination idea, based on the fact that everyone including myself seems to think this is the problem, got to be the two stroke oil! I have never looked at the two stroke oil since I had the engine, but how ??? An investigation ensued!!! The first thing I noticed when I took the hood of the engine was the collar around the top of the oil injection tank, this had a little pool of water in it! When I first saw it I paid it no never mind, I thought the oil tank has a stopper on the top so nothing can get in, right? Wrong! I mopped up the water with some tissue and pulled the stopper out, looked down the throat of the tank and I could see beads of water! We have a problem Huston!!! So I thought to myself how can it get into the tank? First place to look was the filler cap on the hood, there is a neoprene seal that is ??? nine years old, had to think for a minute So way past its usefulness, in fact crumbling away, the other thing I noticed was inside the plastic cap the was condensation, big blobs of water! It was a very cold day just for the record, so I thought water gets by the seal on the cap on the hood and to make matters worse drips of condensation dripping onto the tank stopper Then I turned to the oil tank stopper, checked out the seal all looked fine? Then I noticed two small holes on the top and also small holes 9 oclock and 3 oclock, I guess oil comes out the tank air must go in! And it vents through the cap, water pools in the collar around the top of the oil tank and seeps into the tank through the vent holes, (see pictures) I thought to myself only one thing for it, total strip down of the oil injection system and blow it out with the airline that was kindly lent to me, it has an inline water sepperattor! You don't want to be blowing water in from the air tank! I emptied the oil tank and at first I saw only a little water and then about half a cup poured out the bottom of the tank, well that pretty much sattisfied my mind this was at least a problem that was serious and must have a very significant effect on the running of my motor! Just hope my main bearings arn't shot! I'm in the process of reassembly when it stops b..dy raining! Got my spares through today so just need to get on and hopefully run the motor up and see how she runs, I will update again as I progress, hopefully with some good news! I thought this might be an interesting thread for anyone having problems they can't get to the bottom of and if you have a cap on the hood of your outboard, have a very close look at it, it really is important that it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Fuel connector on the tank in good condition? i've had problems with this in the past PJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 By Eck Lad ! You HAVE been busy ! Persistent arne't you. I'm looking forward to hearing a success story at the end of all this. It'd be a great prezzie if you get it going by Christmas. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Thanks Jim, that's my plan, to hear the engine roar into action! Got an awful cold now! But I will be on it as soon as I can walk across the garden weout me wadders on! I can smell VICTORY!!! Dam this cold of mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted December 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Fuel connector on the tank in good condition? i've had problems with this in the past PJ Hi Paul, I'm getting fuel through alright, my theory is the water sinks to the bottom of the oil tank and I have already proved that, the feed to the oil pump is at the bottom of the tank, so any water is injected straight into the engine, mixes with the incoming fuel/air and waters the mix down, when what is actually needed is a rich mixture to start the engine So now it's going to have new clean 2 stroke oil and new fuel, 50p say's she'll start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted May 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thought I'd finished this off, doh' Well just to provide closure the engine did start and still runs very well to this day, so what did I learn, don't keep fuel hanging around for more than 5 or six weeks and that's if its kept in a cool place out of sunlight, two stroke's don't really like unleaded fuel unless its fresh, you get out of an engine what you put in to it so I try to store as little fuel as possible and at the end of the season I drain the motor right down fuel line the whole lot I don't get any water in my oil anymore due to sealing up the access cap on the hood of the engine, what a bad design that is... who would have ever thought you would get water in the oil injection tank, funny thing is I read about a guy on an American forum that had the same trouble and he tore his whole engine down trying to find the fault!! I was going to send him a pm but then I realized this was 5 years ago! Poor b..ger, anyway I'm happy to conclude this thread with the news that my Yamaha 70 BETO runs as sweet as a nut, starts on the button every time and even if it's left for weeks and I believe this is down to regular maintenance and clean fresh fuel. Stuie, Brian, niggle and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just thought I would add the pictures that I was unable to load before due to technical issues... This is the cap on the hood, the first line of defence against rain and saltwater. This is the neoprene seal that was knackered! Check out the water bubbles, I drained 250 ml of water out of the tank! Air holes in the cap, center top Air holes in the side this is where the water gets in... The rubber collar around the cap was full of water, been sat like this all winter! Mint clean oil tank free of water! And ready to go back on. Stuie, Coddy, Jim and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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