Member Removed Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hello Lads, I'm looking to get a 3rd wheel for my Snipe trailer if that makes any sense. I nearly lost the wifes brand new Rav 4 on Sunday trying to recover my boat. I must have put the trailer to far in to the sea and got bogged down, Rav 4 wouldn't pull it out and got both stuck with a fast incoming tide!! (why did she talk me into changing my Discovery), Had to get them both pulled out with a Jeep. Full beach as well Would never have happened on a empty beach would it. Has started me thinking is the Rav 4 actually a 4 wheel drive / 4 X 4. Any way I've seen trailers with their spare wheel attached with some sort of bracket next to the jockey wheel enabling the trailer/boat to be removed from the car, launched/retrieved then pulled back up the beach using a rope Keeping the car on dry sand all the time . Are these brackets available from Snipe or another manufacturer as I cant find anything about them on the websites or are they a home made thingy majiggy. I'm also looking to get some sort of security for the trailer as I don't like the Idea of leaving it on the beach for hours on end,My old roller coaster trailer had a triple lock mechanism built in to the ball socket. Any suggestions. Many Thanks Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newboy Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Rav is a real 4x4, but it's a little on the small side and a little under power. I guess it would be ok on a good slipway, but wouldn't be much good in tricky situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afishionado Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Marc, are you talking about a jockey wheel? It's a hight adjustable, swiveling theird wheel at the front of a trailer. You can buy them at trailer shops, caravan shops, and lowest cost of all ebay auctions. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Removed Posted May 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Mike, No, The trailer itself already has a jockey wheel on it. The wheel I'm after is actually the same size as the trailers wheels and really is the spare wheel. The ones I've seen although not close up seem to sit on some sort of bracket next to the jockey wheel and allow you to roll the trailer up and down the beach. I've tried it just using the jockey wheel and it just gets stuck and bedded down in the sand, the third/spare wheel allows it to roll without it digging in if you can sort of picture it. I don't think the problem lies in it being underpowered or small, Just don't think it is a real 4 x 4 in the true meaning of 4 x 4. I don't rate it as a 4 x 4 at all, It doesn't have any diff locks, One wheel was bogged down and just spun while the other three just sat there with what seemed like no traction to them. If thats intelligent 4 wheel drive they can keep it. I will be contacting Toyota to ask them about it though as it should never have really been stuck in the first place. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Marc, A book I have just bought details a 'beach launching trolley' as they have no choice than to beach launch this unit converts the standard 2 wheeled unit into a 4 wheeled affair. I dont think you can buy them (maybe worth scanning the web) but fairly simple to knock up I'd think. The attached file shows what I mean. It attaches to the trailer hitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afishionado Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Mike, No, The trailer itself already has a jockey wheel on it. The wheel I'm after is actually the same size as the trailers wheels and really is the spare wheel. The ones I've seen although not close up seem to sit on some sort of bracket next to the jockey wheel and allow you to roll the trailer up and down the beach. I've tried it just using the jockey wheel and it just gets stuck and bedded down in the sand, the third/spare wheel allows it to roll without it digging in if you can sort of picture it. I don't think the problem lies in it being underpowered or small, Just don't think it is a real 4 x 4 in the true meaning of 4 x 4. I don't rate it as a 4 x 4 at all, It doesn't have any diff locks, One wheel was bogged down and just spun while the other three just sat there with what seemed like no traction to them. If thats intelligent 4 wheel drive they can keep it. I will be contacting Toyota to ask them about it though as it should never have really been stuck in the first place. Marc Ah I see what you mean. One possible way of resolving the problem is to modify the forks (dead easy job and I'll do it for you if you want) to accept a pnumatic pnewmatic newmatrik BLOW UP wheel which would give a better load spread on sand B&Q sell them they are about 8" dia. The other way would be to make up a 'dolly' that attaches to your tow hitch when needed. And in writing this I have remembered a sort of sled thing that one uses on soft sand. The Jockey wheel sits in/on it and allows the front end of the trailer to slide with little friction over the sand as opposed to sinking in. I bet one could knock one of these up too. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hi Marc I had a Seahog on a trailer which had its jockey wheel as a pnuematic wheel of approx 8" diam. I know this is not what you mean but I used this set up on a beach without the wheel sinking into the sand. Pulled the trailer and boat up many a slip/beach using a rope with the car on firm ground all the time. If you go this way you may have to replace the jockey assy as the axle point may not be big enough to fit the wheel. Crayside Marine have some for sale at around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swainiac Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Coddy, is it bulky up inside the trailer assembly????? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Marc Have you seen the arrangement they use at Swanage? It's a long Scaffold Pole with a pair of wheels and a ball hitch at one end, the other end has a tow hitch to fit to the vehicle. Gives good control without putting the vehicle into the water. Regards, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domino Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Marc, As you've already discovered a '4wd' with a center diff but no diff lock is really a '1wd'... ie. lose traction on any one wheel and that's it - you aint goin' nowhere! What tyres have you got on it? If your just on road tyres, it might be worth changing to 'All Terrains' if your going to make a habit of beach launching. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Removed Posted May 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Cheers Lads, The bogie / scaffold pole sounds like the way to go for the beach launching the only problem I can see is where to keep it. If its left on the beach some bugger is bound to steal it. I thought you's had realised that I was up here in Newcastle, the North East. If its not nailed down it will be had away for weighing in at the local scrapyard I contacted Toyota yesterday and they asked me to take the car down so they could test it as I said the 4WD wasn't working. How did they test it ....................... Put it up on a lift, pressed the accelerator and said, "look all four wheels are going round" I told them they had to be joking, I wanted it tested properly, They asked ME how they should test it. I pointed over at a muddy field and said go and stick it in there and lets see if you can get it out. The workshop manager in his crisp clean suit declined my offer and said what will that prove ?????????. I'm now waiting to here from Toyotas technical side of things on how they are going to test the 4WD system as the workshop still recon that they don't have a test procedure to tell if the system is working or not. I would like to know your thoughts on this as I'm not sure exactually how 4WD works and when I go down to meet the lad who is going to test it I can have some questions and answers for him, so he can't pull the wool over my eyes. Thanks Lads Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Marc You could padlock the scaffold pole to the trailer, transport it the same way. Regards, Brian http://homepage.ntlworld.com/brunyard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 A 4WD Rolling road will test it out - that is the usual method, I would have thought they would have suggested it??...Mind you a session is not too cheap, and a 4WD Rolling road is fairly hard to find. Basically this will produce a torque graph showing the power transmission to all four wheels and how they perform. They can also adjust the rollers to stress differnet wheels / parts of the transmission. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Rich You just replace the whole jockey assembly with one with a blow up wheel. It does hang down a little more but not by much. As I said it is a simple matter to move the boat around on the trailer, it is also worth checking the hitch weight (this thread keeps coming up) as if it is too heavy any wheel will sink Regards Cod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swainiac Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Cheers coddy.............if the manufacturers balance is adjusted by adding/subtracting weight, I suppose they dont want to know if the jockey fails to guide??? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Without being detrimental to your wifes new car. The Rav is more of a fashion fad than a 4x4. The system it uses for "4 wheel" drive is a viscous coupling on the gearbox. Basically the same as the old sierra xr4x4. It'll never really perform off road as its got independent suspension all round which gives less ground clearance than live axles. For true 4x4 you need a proper cntr diff that is lockable. Even then if you cross axle it( diagonally oposite wheels spinning) you'll loose drive. I've fitted locking diffs to both axles on the Range Rover. Together with the cntr diff locked its never failed to pull the boat out. Even at low spring tide at Redcliffe farm with the trailer off the slip in the mud. When its out of the warranty period you could tighten the viscous coupling to stop it slipping too much when on sand etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob F Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 A couple of the reasons I chose the Suzuki Grand Vitara was: # selectable 2 wheel or 4 wheel drive with Hi/Lo (saves fuel and tyres). # apparently one of the most sophisticated 4 wheel drives for its class. (not as good as a Range Rover or Land Rover, but much, much better than Rav 4). # Good head room for rear passengers (especially compared to Freelander and Frontera). My eldest son is over 6ft. # Good compromise between cost, road use and ability to pull a boat up a slip. Downsides: # boot area is smaller than I'd like (but no different than the Rav 4 ilk). # spare parts can be expensive, apparently, but I haven't had anything go wrong with it, yet. Bottom line - decide what you need from the car and then test drive as many different types as you can. The Grand Vitara wasn't top of my list when I set about looking for a 4x4, but it ended up as the best overall compromise for us. Bob F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_MALROY_Fisherman Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 For any of you guys that may be interested the unit that can be fitted to the front of a trailer to act as a proper third wheel is called a "Sand Skipper". It is manufactured and sold by Indespension Trailers (as supplied on the Warriors) and as a commercially available unit. It can be bought as a seperate spares item and works as follows: It clamps on the single front tube just either side of the winch post. It has a swinging arm with a wheel hub mounted with using the same stub axle unit as the suspension units hence you could actually remove the bearings as a set of spares in the event a a main wheel bearing failure. You mount you spare on trailer wheel on the swinging arm which locks into either an upward position for travelling or the lower position for pulling out of the water as a very large jockey wheel. Invaluable on softer sand when roping out of the water. You can also launch quite easy using the same wheel system when hand pushing out the trailer (again on soft sand). If I can suss out how to inport a picture I will post one if this unit on my trailer. Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malroy Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Sorry, forgot to log in. There is now a picture of this unit on my boat trailer if interested, if you click on my personal profile image. Still don't know if possible to upload an image to the postings. Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Easy Malc. When you have finished typing your text, move to the bottom of the reply screen. (the one I am in now - as I type this reply) You will see a box and a section called 'Browse' Click this and it will launch a search box for the files in your computer, browse around, select the image you want to insert then click OK. When you click Add Reply to finish the post, Volia' the picture will appear! Hope this helps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malroy Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Thanks Adam, will give it a go. Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malroy Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 1st attempt to upload said picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malroy Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Seemed to make it OK, sorry about the image size, however it does show the "Sand Skipper" with some detail. However a big word of warning to all 4x4 owners! No matter how good your 4x4 is: difflocks, large ground clearances, type of tyres etc., you could loose any of them if you move into an unsuspecting water table. When launching on a beach you must assess vary carefully the nature of and where the water table ends, i.e. to explain: The water table is the extent the water (sea) travels not just visibly over the top of the sand, but also below the surface of the sand. On a lot of beaches (probably most) it is usually the same under the surface as you see visibly on the surface, especially on the deeper shelving ones. However on quite a few of the more shallow shelving beaches the water table can extend quite far beyond the visible sea line, thus causing unsafe soft jelly like areas well in front where you would consider them to be a safe launching areas. Some beaches in reverse however, have quite firm water tables at the waters edge and for a short stretch into the water (this usually causes a degree of over confidence in vehicle capabilities) but!!!! I would always recommend the use of roping to recover the trailer from your 4x4 well clear of the water after first pushing out the trailer. NEVER make the mistake of being over confident with a 4x4's capabilities on wet sand. The North West and Nort Wales beaches have claimed many, many 4x4's (including one of mine) plus several tractors as well (yes even Tractors). Up to now when pulling out, I have never had any "dig ins" using the spare on the "Sand Skipper", and when it hits an unsuspecting rock it either glances to one side or just bounces up and over, whereas even with a pneumatic jocky wheel you will still likely bend something (probably the stem) if you hit a rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Nice boat Malroy! - and a cracking piccie also, she looks really good in the sun! We are lucky down this way. We dont even have the choice of beach launching, everything is done on slipways. But a good word of warning. Even on slips, being over confident with a 4wd is dangerous, several of the slips around here can be trecherous and demand care. Do you want me to tell you how to load the piccie as an Avatar (little picture that shows by your username in the left hand box? adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malroy Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Yes please, either post or email me at malc@coleherneuk.com (having to use works at the moment till I sort out a new broadband system). P.S. anybody thinking on new broadband should check out www.asdlguide.org.uk which enables comparison of most of them - quite good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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