charlieannear Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I think a certain someone who I sat near to on Saturday night must have done the voodoo on me and stole all my luck... After a day cruising around the harbour, about 200 yards off Baiter slip, Star Turn's Johnson outboard made a brief but disconcerting shriek. I throttled back immediately, and the motor was running smoothly. We coasted into the slip and I switched off. At that time of the day I wasn't about to begin investigating the problem and we had made it back to the slip! Today I put the muffs on the engine (yep, I know I should have done it last night, but it was dark and already 0 degrees...) and started up- fine, apart from the prop was spinning with the throttle in neutral. Alarm bells ringing in my head, I switched off and turned the battery off. Turning the prop by hand makes an unhealthy sound and I can feel mechanical resistance, rather than it spinning relatively freely. Does anyone have any preliminary diagnoses? The engine shouldn't fire up if it's properly in gear. Seems to me (not knowing much about ob's) like the 'clutch' has gone. These things come in threes... I'm hoping this is the third, the second being that I blanked at the comp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Charlie, You can't blame this one on me! Or maybe this is karma for stealing the charger from my new drill! Perhaps the gear selector under the cowling is not working correctly. Check the linkage is working smoothly and correctly. There is no such "clutch" but they straight cut gear just "pop" in gear and out. That is why they often are more noise going in to reverse than forward (shape of the teeth I think). Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted December 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Charlie, You can't blame this one on me! Or maybe this is karma for stealing the charger from my new drill! Perhaps the gear selector under the cowling is not working correctly. Check the linkage is working smoothly and correctly. There is no such "clutch" but they straight cut gear just "pop" in gear and out. That is why they often are more noise going in to reverse than forward (shape of the teeth I think). Rob Nope, I still reckon you called upon the Dark Gods this weekend! Anyway, I didn't steal your charger, I was just looking after it for you... Right-o, I'll have a look under the cowling in the morning. I hope it is as simple as that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afishionado Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Plugs out, IN gear, rotate the prop so that if all is well the rotation is transfered via the gearbox and drive shaft back to moving the pistons. Do several rotations in both Forward and Reverse. If there is a problem, first check the travel on the remote leaver/cable/actuating arm is pushing the gear leaver on the engine fully home. After this it can start to be expensive and IMO an O/B mechanic should be called in to give an opinion. Try Sam Tricket 07810 561520 (he gives a discount to club members) Mad Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey B Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Sounds similar to the problem I had with my Yamaha F30 a few months ago. Check the control cables at the outboard end? Teleflex are prone to corrosion of the outer sleeve which eventualy leads to a collapse of the outer sleeve under load, making it impossible to select any gears and leaving the gear box locked partially in forward or reverse when the cable fails. Only solution is to change the cables. Teleflex do make a stainless cable which will last longer, but costs twice the price of the mild steel version. Due to the amout of work required to replace them I opted for the stainless version which are notiably smoother in operation. Mikey B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Removed Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Hi sounds like the cable but if its the gear box i have a v4 one sat doing nothing to get you going again......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Charlie My Mariner prop spins when started with muffs on in neutral but will stop of any resistance is put on it. It could just be the shear pin arrangement that has failed. Might be worth taking the prop off to check. I think I have seen some exploded views of the Johnson engines on the net somewhere, just need the engine size/age. Coddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Hi The lads are correct most problems come from the cables or linkages connected to a linkage under the engine that pushes/pulls a rod up and down. some engines have a connector just above the gearbox that can come undone so that you can not pull the rod back up to disengage fwd gear. The gear mechanism in the leg works on a sliding dog clutch. in the central position it is disengaged [nuetral] it slides fwd to engage into the fwd gear wheel and aft for reverse. Not much to fail down there but if coxn engages slowly top often the dogs can round off until eventually they burr up and it will not go into gear. It is not usual for the dogs to break as they are fairly heavy duty. Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted January 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Thanks for all the suggestions chaps. Now that the festivities are out of the way, I'll get my tools out and investigate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted January 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Charlie My Mariner prop spins when started with muffs on in neutral but will stop of any resistance is put on it. It could just be the shear pin arrangement that has failed. Might be worth taking the prop off to check. I think I have seen some exploded views of the Johnson engines on the net somewhere, just need the engine size/age. Coddy The prop didn't used to spin whan I was flushing the o/b on the driveway- it's certainly spinning now with far too much enthusiasm for me to try applying any resistance to it! It's a Johnson 50hp, 2 stroke, Electric tilt/trim c.2003 C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Hi Charlie Here is a link to the manual for your engine http://www.repairmanual.com/marine/2/17469 I know it is in US$ but might be able to find it at the libary or Amazon Coddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted January 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Thanks Dave, but as the picture on the front shows a 'curvier' outboard than the one that graces the blunt end of Star Turn, I looked at that site and reckon I need this one. And available from Amazon! C Edited January 3, 2008 by charlieannear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) Right, so I eventually shifted the succession of coughs and colds that have plagued me since Christmas and took advantage of the longer light evening available after work today. In summary: Dropped the gearcase off the outboard. Drained the gearcase oil, to find that the substance that came out was about half a jam jar of black oily sea water with lots of bits of metal in it. I've probably only used 4 cans (about 100 litres) of fuel, mostly spent pottering about in Poole Harbour with the family since I had the outboard serviced. I always flush through with fresh water after use and it is dry stored on the trailer in my drive. The trouble is I had it serviced quite a while ago. It was serviced in late 2006 but not used until Spring 2007 and then, sadly, only half a dozen times in 2007. I just haven't been able to use the boat very much. So, do I have any scope for recourse with the servicer? My difficulty being that I have hardly used the outboard since it was serviced, regardless of the fact that it was serviced quite a while ago. Or is a gearbox failure like this anything to do with it being serviced anyway? Right, I'm going to drink some beer now... Edited March 31, 2008 by charlieannear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afishionado Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Ooow Er Well the only a little bit of bad news first, is that too much time has elapsed since the service to have any recourse on the people who did it. You can not prove low use and in any event it sounds like you have a gear box seal failure which might well not have been apparent 2 years ago. The really bad news is that your gear box needs stripping and the mechanisms inside it examining for ware and corrosion, together with a rebuild with whatever parts are required. I always recommend Sam Tricket who services my engine and has worked on several of the members boats. Mad Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Yeah, that's what I thought to be honest. Does anyone have any idea what the cost of this is likely to be? Is it economical to attempt, or am I looking at new gearbox, or new motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Sam T says gearbox is fried. Expensive to fix. More expensive to replace. Might as well get a new motor. Would like to talk to anyone tomorrow who has any advice as to what to do! i.e. what to go for. Or happens to have a new gearbox for my outboard in their shed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afishionado Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 I would keep checking Ebay as there are often whole g/b's offered there. Also there is a guy on the IoW who breaks O/B's and sells components, check Boats&outboards under O/B's and engine parts. Remind me ..what is the engine in question? Mad Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 It' is (was) a Johnson J50PLSNF 2 Stroke, 50hp, power tilt & trim, 2002 (!!!). I've been looking for gearboxes online (e-bay, B&O, Google etc) I've seen lots, but none that match mine. And what sellers reckon is Good Condition seems to mean 'Has half the skeg missing' Have asked at Bill Higham Marine and even though I have given them exact model number, they asked me 'how many splines?' which shows the risk at getting the wrong one. I guess I am asking the 2-stroke/4-stroke question (with reference to fitting to a Shetland Family Four.) Plus I am not terribly familiar with the manufacturers- e.g comparing to cars, which OB's are Rolls Royce and which ones are Zastava. Can anyone give me a rough indication? Also, my Navman plotter interfaces with Mercury outboards. Are Mercury any good (are they Ford or are they Proton?)? Worms, can of, opened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Hi Charlie Sorry to hear the bad news Have a look at Bill Higham's web site, he is based in the Midlands but has thousands of outboard spares. http://www.billhigham.co.uk/ If you find something let me know as I may be able to pick it up for you as I travel up and down the country nearly every week! Mike it is a Johnson 50hp 2-stroke 2003 Coddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Charlie Mercury or mariner are one of the same and are classed as the fords of the outboard world. I would suggest that a fifty hp on a family four is the bottom of the hp required for this relatively heavy boat. If you intend keeping the boat for any length of time then consider a more powerfull engine. On the owners website it states that 90hp as being the maximum. If I were you I would be looking to get as near to that as I could afford. I would suggest a 70 would the minimum to give reasonable performance on the boat when loaded Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Charlie, Don't ask such silly questions. There is sooooo much debate in the forum to what is best it is untrue! Anyway the answer is Yamaha!!!! If you can go 4 stroke or Etec you will save Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 If you are not a "Brand Tart" look at the Tohatsu engines 2 or 4 stroke Tough as old boots and they even guarantee them for racing see Zapcats! http://www.tohatsu-uk.net/ Coddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 (edited) Yep, trying to be an every cloud has a silver lining type of chap, this was what I was thinking. I have previously commented that ST could do with more than 50hp, although I wasn't planning on being forced into it right now! I think, yes, ST will be an Annear Boat for some time to come now! I agree, and I'm considering the option of 75hp e-tec or equiv mariner or similar, price dependent. The 90hp stated on by Shetland would be related to the weight of the motor? And a 50hp E-tec is heavier than the Johnson 50hp. A modern 90hp might be too heavy? (assuming I could afford one!! Anyone know of a quick way to earn Edited April 2, 2008 by charlieannear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Charlie, Be careful with how much power you put on the back of ST. As the original spec says it can take 90hp, remember that is old skool HP - measured at the fly wheel. Modern outboards are measured at the prop - so a new 90 is pushing out quite a bit more beef than an old skool one. I suspect 75 would be more than enough, plus I don't want to be cut-up by a Family 4!!!! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted April 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 (edited) If you are not a "Brand Tart" look at the Tohatsu engines 2 or 4 stroke Tough as old boots and they even guarantee them for racing see Zapcats! http://www.tohatsu-uk.net/ Coddy Willing to consider all options. They appear to be cheaper, and not as heavy but from that website, "Unfortunately due to the EU emission regulations after the 1st January 2007 Two Stroke engines can no longer be imported. We will still have some stock after 1st January but they will only be available for a limited period." Edited April 3, 2008 by charlieannear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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